My previous post in response to Marc Lynch and his Talking about Jordan post generated quite a burst of responses on this blog and his. It is always exciting to see some passion rising up in the conversation, however a R-rated passion must be tamed whenever a few crosses the line of decency and convert the debate to make it personal attack against the writer or another commentator. With all things considered, I was excited and embezzled a little bit by some of those who responded in favor of democracy. Not in terms of its necessity and applicability in the Middle East and particularly in Jordan, but more in terms of the economic benefits that some people think that comes naturally along with it.
Somehow, some commentators got the idea somewhere that a full-functioning democracy is essential for economic growth and equality among the citizen of the society. This wishful thinking has some truth to it but the relationship between democracy and economic growth is way more complicated than a proportional linear one. The real question is for researchers and readers of this blog to determine whether democracy brings wealth or the other way around?
Unfortunately for democracy activists, research in the field of development indicates that economic development typically creates democratic changes and not the other away around. That the distribution of wealth in the society will typically create a large enough middle class which is needed as the social basis of democracy. Additionally wealth usually increases the level of education in the society to facilitate democratic changes in the political arena. That is also questionable at least by some of commentators on my previous post who believe somehow that Western-educated Jordanians are those who mostly opposed to any democratic changes. Some even named this group the "neo-liberals" hinting to another group of thinkers "neo-conservative" which is infamous and unfortunate these days in Washington DC. However; the argument for education basically support the idea that an educated citizenry is likely to be more knowledgeable about the political process and aware of their rights. So is the relationship between wealth and democracy a direct and a linear one? The answer is not that simple.
Adam Przeworski and Fernando Limongi found that wealth has a measurable effect on the survival rate of democracy, but not on the emergence rate of democracy. In other words, to the extent wealth is an independent variable, poor democracies are more likely to collapse than wealthy democracies. The bottom line is that you can be all for democracy and for its benefits on the society but do not associate wealth directly with democracy. The presence of first does not mean the presence of the latter. A sobering example is China, which enjoyed the most growing economy for the last two decades where its government still governs its people by blood and fear.
On another topic. What is the relationship between democracy and human rights? Now that will require another post so stay tuned.
41 comments:
Informative. But how come that all deomcratic countries seem to be wealthier than others. I am not sure that I would buy your argument.
Stat 101: correlation does not mean causation
Q Morning, Mr. President. I have a more general question about the United States' work to democratize the rest of the world. Many have viewed the United States' effort to democratize the world -- especially nations in the Middle East -- as an imposition or invasion on their sovereign rights. Considering that it was, in fact, the Prophet Mohammed who established the first known constitution in the world -- I'm referring to the constitution he wrote for the city of Medina --and that his life and the principles outlined in his constitution, such as the championing of the welfare of women, children and the poor, living as an equal among his people, dissolving disputes between the warring clans in Arabia, giving any man or woman in parliament the right to vote and guaranteeing respect for all religions, ironically parallel those principles that we hold most precious in our own Constitution. I'm wondering how might your recently formed Iraq Study Group under the U.S. Institute for Peace explore these striking similarities to forge a new relationship with Iraqis and educate Americans about the democratic principles inherent in Islam?
We have the wealth but we forgot and living talking Hijab, Sunni Shiites, other funny and stupid things that make more division between Muslims, where really we should to core of Islam as a system of life for a real sold society and a way of life that should be more concerned from freedom, respect, fighting corruptions and all of these ills causing our ill’s in our societies.
say
Say,
Do you think that Islamic parties in Jordan or the ME has any political agenda to solve the current challanges that we fact today? Do you think that they are willing to share power with others or to give power back if they manage to have it? Just curious to hear your opinion.
India is the largest democracy in the world, yet they have at least 30% poverty..I am all for democracy and freedom of speech, but as a believer in those two I also respect the majority, walk in the streets of east amman or in tafileh and ask any avergae jordanian what he prefers, to curse the government freely or to gain more money..In jordan I believe that we have financial democracy, the poltical aspect of democracy can be suitable when the mindset is ready, and I think that our mindset is far from ready to accepting the other..Just take a look at jordanian blogs, or even a look a islamic media arms like al-sabeel..
Anyway, to make the long short, political democracy follows the financial one, not the other way around, or else it would be bloody..
Shifaa,
Regrettably that what bother me form all these parties and groups what ever names they used links to Islam as you note "Islamic parties".
What on earth these guys doing, Are we non Muslim! Just they are a real Muslims?
هل كل من اطلق لحيته وشواربه وامسك بالمسبحة تجبر علينا وجعل نفسة بالمسلم الحقيقي التقي الورع وكفرة الجميع؟
يا أخي هل اننا كفار كوننا لبسنا البنطال او حلقنا لحانا او شواربنا؟
All these signs to be noted as Muslims and all other in the streets and homes are not Muslims?
I thinks these just sickness that we introduced between us, there is shouldn’t be these division if some one or group try to define its self like that should be expelled as this is just fraud and untrue, we are in Arab, Islamic countries we all Muslims (with all due respect of other religion minorities) we all Muslims no one on this earth telling me he is better than me because he joined "Islamic parties" of Islamic Group" Allah he judge us no humans on this earth have the right to judge us.
We should love each other and live with each other and worked for the best or society the good one from us who work hard and sincere for this nation, not the names that make them better or extremes and infidels its all against our believes and our ideas of a good and the best society that Allah have put on this earth.
Thanks
say
Mohanned,
Welcome to the blog. I actually checked your blog a minute ago and was impressed by what are you doing and your plan to go back home and help the people of Jordan. Curious to know, what is you major?
Wonder if you had a chance to read the previous post. One commentator made a point that Western=educated Jordanians are more cautious about democracy than other Jordanians. What do you think of that as a western educated Jordanian? Do you think that there is some truth to that?
Say,
May be you should start a progresive or a moderate Islamic party! I like what I hear from you.
a world filled with 1.5 billion Muslims ( of which over 300 million are Arabs). Jews had 139 Nobel Laureates despite being a fraction of a percent of world population (1/5 of 1%).
Actually I read the previous post, but sometimes when I see the thread going south I prefer to keep quiet:)
Most of our officials are western educated, just check their CVs. I can say that the statment has some truth to it, but you can't generalize, we know how most of those officials got their scholarships(I was supposed to get one, but didn't due to some issues!) If I was to be in a decision making position these days I will be cautious simply because the public mindset is not ready, and I feel that democracy in jordan need to be worked on due to our dependence on the regional issues. The major obstacle I think is the definition of jordanian, how do you define loyalty, how can you make the general public loyal to jordan, the answer is social justice and equality which we are not ready for..Anyway it is a complicated issue, and I don't want to be called a racist or a neo-liberal as usual so I will leave it there..
To answer your question about my major, I am doing a PhD in Information systems, I wll be focusing on leaderhsip and change managment; no specific subject is chosen yet, I hope soon I will :)
Interesting blog you have here..
Mohanned,
how do you define loyalty, how can you make the general public loyal to jordan,
You in US I believe, if we take the society their, a group of different ethic’s and immigrates they came to be Americans, so how then US got these different peoples to be loyal to US and progressed and got wealthy?
Is the Loyalty holding Jordan to become wealthy?
There are more important factors for that.
say
You chose one part of my whole comment and built your argument on it, read the rest before you throw judgments around..
Loyalty is by no way mean ignoring who we are, it simply means putting jordan's interests first, and under the current circumstances jordanian interests comes last for many "jordanians", you may ask why? I say because social justice is absent, corruption is rooted and division exists..
When you become loyal to something you become more productive, I am loyal for my family so I work hard to earn us a good living, on the other hand when I live in a country where I feel descriminated against I will not be as productive. Even in organization and unloyal employee can bring a company down. And be careful, when I talk about loyalty I mean loyalty to jordan as a country and people..How can we get to that point?
Once jordanians from the east bank understand that jordanians from the west bank are jordanians wether they like it or not, and also when jordanians of palastenian origin stop considering jordan as a big refugee camp that sold their land, it is simple but at the same time it is hard..
Everyone must understand that jordan is no longer a "buffer zone". we are a country with people, and our people is what makes us great(I hope)..
And to answer your last question the US led the world by their social justice and equality(eventhoug some racism exists).
I don't what is up with my typos, sorry :)
Mohanned
I think we are in discussion here, I have the right to ask for more thoughts from you, accusing otherwise I believe some sort of naivety.
Anyway, back to the main discussion.
What’s my pervious posts was is may be not put in the way clear enough, we had the laws of justice and rule for the society before 1400 years ago, which be approved along that time with Islamic rulings, this my major concern what I try to say, if US had 200-300 years when establish her rule of their social justice and equality, so the question where are we as a Muslims and Arab from our 1400 social justice and equality?
So what is more important of loyalty (which I believe in Jordan mean loyal to the Hashemite king rather than state of Jordan as I feel it,) is the level of education skilled people and the Literacy people that will be the driving force for wealth in Jordan’s society.
If we compare Jordan with Israeli, although Israeli have a huge support by US with all aspects of the state but still we should take it an example for us, Israel its exceptional state, a state have status of war for 50 years went from very small cantons to a state that have the power and wealth build disputed many wars and threats to its survivors.
So comparing with Jordan why then Jordan stayed behind?
Corruptions, tribe style of society and social justice and equality, skilled peoples, Literacy adult, health issue these are main factor contributes to the Jordan lost the wealth or staying behind wealthy state.
In regards to Palestinians, the big historic fault the Arab did was setting refugee camp, which surly is a discriminations against Palestinians as humans, of course that created what you stated as “ considering Jordan as a big refugee camp that sold their land, it is simple but at the same time it is hard.
Only Iraq Egypt’s did gave Palestinians some recognition and they accepting without creating “ a big refugee camp for them the worse what we see today in Lebanon where the Palestinians are living in not just a big refugee camp but in big prison not allowing to leave or travel.
I thing the Arab make a big mistake not to take Palestinians on their land, and gave them all the rights as their citizens with the available lands and wealth like Iraq Saudis UEA and other oil wealthy countries.
I would like to forgive, for this in regards to our nation and society, if Shifaa , and to some degree Mohanned, the tribe style that Jordan living in is hold the nation backward, tribal was apart of Islamic state when the society was not big and grouped by small grouped apart from other gropes which make understandable that the tribal head he is in charge to lead due to the difficulty of communications, transport between the head of stat and far end of the territories that state rule, but after the industrial revolutions the west take the lead and developed fast to overcome all these matter and ill’s, but in our land “ME” we left these styles as main part of our society and for some is pride to have it.
Apologies for the lengthy comment.
Thanks
say
"Only Iraq Egypt’s did gave Palestinians some recognition and they accepting without creating “ a big refugee camp for them the worse what we see today in Lebanon where the Palestinians are living in not just a big refugee camp but in big prison not allowing to leave or travel."
Actually ONLY jordan gave them citizen status, And I don't want to transform this debate to "what lies beneath" kind of debate..Jordan was FORCED to get in the 1967 war(King hussien god bless his soul decided to win the street rather being called a traitor) If we didn't get involved in the 1967 war we would have been the model country in middle east, then came black september which deepened the divisions within our society, the country became polarized and is still so up to now. The next time king hussien decided to listen to the street we stood by saddam and had to sign a peace treaty to be forgivven. We live in volcanic region, we can't read what people have in their hearts but actions explain intentions.. When we say we want to build a better jordan then we must put Jordan( as a country) first, not hamas, not syria, not iran, not iraq, each of the previous has his own agenda and was not able to solve his own problems so I say it is the God damn time we focus on jordan..
Of course, jordanians are among the best educated in the world, jordan exports talent(Actually it drains), relegion is between one's self and God, our interpretations of islam MUST change; our days islamists care about taking down signs written in english while american voulnteers are helping jordanians in rural areas..
Zaki bani rasheed was in damascus and met with khaled mesha3el who met with ahmad najad; can you please explain this to me!!Jordanians are smart, islamists have loud voices thats all..
We went off topic, the subject matter is very complicated, but it all goes back to creating a mindset of tolerance and acceptance..
Of course, jordanians are among the best educated in the world,
I wish for all Arabs not just Jordanians but the reality clear for every one from Arab world that’s why we are a way behind the developing worlds.
Is that making sense for you for prove or still you holding your mindset...?
Look forward when you come back to Jordan and see your revolution in your country good luck for you.
I do not see problem in associating "highly educated Jordanians" and Jordan being far behind the developed World. There is a missing piece here and that is the infrastructure and know-how system that put those talents into production.
Issues like Wasta, corruption, lack of the sense of entrepreneurship. I think the latter is the most important missing aspect in the Jordanian and Arab psyche. America is leading the world today not because they have the most doctors and engineers and all the other professionals. America is an economic giant becuase it has the most enterprenerures as a percentage to its population.
"I don't go to discussing with some one his level of language downy like you."
Huh?
It was a mistake to get involved in this debate, I feel sorry for me..
Thanks shifaa for the space and good luck.
listen you guys,,America became an economic giant because their imperial blundering policy ,from day one ,America terminated 30 million native in north and South America to occupy one of the richest region of the world ,and since then it has been doing the plundering and killing .
There is an excellent book written by John Perkins and it's called the confession of economic hit men ,it's must read if you want to understand the nature of the so called the American superpower.
Capitalism, Globalization,just happens "naturally"click to watch the vedio
Here is another clip for Parenti
Mohanned,
Thanks for your contribution to the conversation. Please do not give up on this blog. I was not around for the last two days. Otherwise I would have deleted the Anon comment early on.
Alaurdini Alhurr,
Welcome to the blog. Even I agree that the American history has very dark chapters in it especially in regard to the Native and Afrian Ameircan, I would disagree that the "termination"of those people and I am using your words created the Giant American economy. According to your argument Sudan and Rwanda who both committed geonocide angasint certain tribe will be super economic powers in the global world today.
Shifaa,
I write to you in regards of deleted comment of mine.
I think this is outrages and bizarre and unfair...
While Mohanned paint me "Lire" even he don’t know me or what I am and from where I am.
The problem this check need to learn how to speck to other people and respect their views, but putting me a “ liars” is just unacceptable and you should omitted his comment if you thing my reply to him was inoffensive. He started putting things from the start.
I think he have no right to say things about me or other people without presented evidences and proves.
If he has any prove for what he said let him presented to our readers but you delete my comment is some how you faulted me and kicked out the wrong commentator.
I asked you either deleted his comment or put back mine.
If he think that he is PhD, he should respect other because did he knows what I am? Did he know where I live?
Is he thinking his studying in US make him ignorance a like or that gives him immunity to attacks other people?
I think you need to think more wisely next time
Thanks
say.
t all goes back to creating a mindset of tolerance and acceptance..
Look what he said!!
For some it's easy speaking words, but learning to behaving with these words it’s hard.
I thought before advising others he should tell himself what he stated"tolerance and acceptance"
.
Say,
I am sorry, I was out of town for the last two days and did not check on the blog.
I did not know that you were the writer of the comment. Typically you wrote your name under the comment but you did not do so with that comment. If I knew your identity, I would not have deleted it because I know and from pervious dialouge that I had wity you that you are an open minded person who respect others and tolerate differences in opinions.
I read Muhand'comment and I do not think that you understood what he meant. He meant" lying beneath" which is another phrase for the underlying motive. I typically do not delete comments and it is not the pracitse of this writer to do so. Honestly, I did not remember the deleted comment to put back. If you can write it again. I will be willing to republish it.
Thanks for your valuable contribution to any conversation, Say.
Shifaa,
First apologies I some times missing my sing in the end of the comments I made, secondly I value your thoughts and words.
I believe we have to share our thought may be its not perfect as per say but sharing it's contribute it will defiantly enrich our minds and thoughts.
If my thoughts about Palestrina's in other countries may not reflect the reality please do discussed here without take my point as a personal attack in any way.
But may I clear some thing to what was the key point here, that Palestine had put in refugees camps which contributes to a big problem for generation for them and for the Arab states who hosted them, this is should be the point to be taken as these humans felt humiliated by isolating them on small piace of land and with restricted public services, which make them feel they are not welcomed as Arab/Muslims treated as brothers sisters, its very sad case we all share the consequences now after 50 years of neglecting their case.
The fact is there are a lot of resources and land that far enough to host Palestine's our brothers and sisters and what was said before when League Of Arab States stated from start is some sort to flee to take responsibility as one Arab nation, not Arab states
However thank you for your post.
say
"Take the Middle East. The biggest trouble spot in the world today, and it's absolutely filled with dinky, little countries. But just imagine how quickly they'd all make peace if someone went there and made a Middle Eastern Union. One country, no more fighting."
"Iraq and Iran are right next to each other and only one letter different. Why are they two countries? If they'd have joined together five or six years ago, then we'd only have to invade once. And God Almighty knows what the world needs is less wars."
George Bush answering questions at a recent speech to students at the University of Kansas to voice his displeasures and concerns about small countries.
العاقل يجب ان يفهم ماذا يخطط لكم من الخارج
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